Curse

shifting shadows · Jan 06, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Curse You - if you don't "intend" to make attack posts, then don't post. You basically just restated my entire argument in a shorter version. Guild Wars is filled with side quests that I, and many others, have no desire to complete. They are boring, unoriginal, and have no real rewards to them. Now I never attacked you on anything. Would you feel better if you stopped acting like a child, and maybe grew up enough to realize that you really shouldn't be stating your opinion in that manner?

Lyra - I'm well aware of the grind in other games. So when A-Net actually starts implementing grind on purpose, I grow worried and I do the only thing I can to prevent it from turning into a crappy grindfest like RO (I have no idea what that is btw, something online?), and that is to post on the forums. Get used to it. I'm not the only one who feels the same or has a similar opinion. Now tell me this. Do you find the quests to be very imaginative, fun, and such a great time that they should be necessary? Is there enough motive to include them as necessary in order to get to the good parts of the game? To me, the answer is a resounding no. The side quests are so similar to almost every other game out there that it's just a borefest to go through them all. Go here, kill these things, gather some of those, kill some more of those, gaurd these guys, rescue them, /yawn. Not inventive, interesting, or particularly creative, and boring.

Also tell me this. How do all your other crappy grind games have any relevance at all in this thread? The question isn't how much grind is in other games, the point being made is that A-Net has implemented grind into Nightfall, whether or not you want to admit it.

Now let's get one last thing straight. I NEVER said that Guild Wars has more grind than other games. I don't know why everyone keeps acting like I did, if they want to reread the thread, then they'll see what I actually said. It seems that every person who disagrees immediately goes to the argument, "well this game has 500000 more hours of grind than Guild Wars, so Guild Wars doesn't have any at all and doesn't need to be changed. So stop saying that Guild Wars has more grind, because I can prove that this game has more". And that's a terrible argument to use considering that RO and whatever other crappy games you all played are not in question, and have no relevance at all.

Kai Nui · Jan 06, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I agree. They should just make a game instead of trying to followup something. Guild Wars (Prophecies) was a good game, it had fufilling missions, diverse land structures and huge explorable areas making the game bigger and better than it was. We still haven't had any game with as many missions as Prophecies, it's all just down hill. I wonder if the fourth one will start you out on a silly island, how long can they use that before it gets old? They really just need to make another game like Prophecies with missions where you actually have to go to the side and do something extra for the bonus, not just kill X things or do it in X amount of time. Whatever, no one knows what I'm talking about and it's pointless to explain. The game has become a piece of crap and I don't think the game will ever become as great as it was when it was a stand alone.

Aegeroth · Jan 06, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Play Maple Story for a month, come back and continue to grumble about Guild Wars' "Grind".

@Kai, Yes, the game has left it's "Golden Age" a mile back, but i think it still surpasses other games as a semi-free to play. I would rather ANet spend a year on the next Chapter and have it as Interesting and Fun as Prophecies than release 2-week finishers which arent Inspiring or Fun or marginally Interesting.

lyra_song · Jan 06, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifting shadows

Lyra - I'm well aware of the grind in other games. So when A-Net actually starts implementing grind on purpose, I grow worried and I do the only thing I can to prevent it from turning into a crappy grindfest like RO (I have no idea what that is btw, something online?), and that is to post on the forums. Get used to it. I'm not the only one who feels the same or has a similar opinion. Now tell me this. Do you find the quests to be very imaginative, fun, and such a great time that they should be necessary? Is there enough motive to include them as necessary in order to get to the good parts of the game? To me, the answer is a resounding no. The side quests are so similar to almost every other game out there that it's just a borefest to go through them all. Go here, kill these things, gather some of those, kill some more of those, gaurd these guys, rescue them, /yawn. Not inventive, interesting, or particularly creative, and boring.

Also tell me this. How do all your other crappy grind games have any relevance at all in this thread? The question isn't how much grind is in other games, the point being made is that A-Net has implemented grind into Nightfall, whether or not you want to admit it.

You imply that GW has grind.

I imply that it hasnt.

Simply by comparing it to a game that has an actual grind, your point that Guild Wars has a grind diminishes.

Since your entire point is built on the concept that GW has grind, your whole OP falls apart.

GW has no grind, what is there to remove?

----------------------

You find the sidequests boring?

Welcome to the world of MMORPGs. No really. Thats how quests work.

Heck welcome to the world of game design.

In fact, if you break down the idea of most any game design, its:

"Go from Point A to Point B"

"Kill/Defeat ________"

"Get/Gather ________"

with the occasional "Oh the princess is in another castle" routine....where they change you mission in the middle and force you to go further on.

FPS, RPGs, Sports games, RTS games, etc.

RPGs implement quests by sending you and your merry party from one map to another. Usually killing something.

Really its just the dressing that changes. I personally like the quests in GW Nightfall since some of them are hilarious, while a lot of them ARE RELEVANT TO THE MAIN STORY.

I can't change the way how you feel about the story behind the quests, but its rather silly to say part of the storyline is a "grind".

Me playing the actual game...you know....the game itself....isnt a grind. The Sunspear point system isnt really a grind, since you can finish it simply by playing through the game normally. Those sunspear points accumulate naturally with the game's design.

If you find the actual GAMEPLAY to be a grind, then just stop playing, its not the right game for you.

If the game forced you to step out of the main game flow just to do one little thing, just to continue, thats a grind. Lvling to lvl 20 in the desert, because you skipped there isn't a grind, since you SKIPPED to there, skipping the storyline where your character grows naturally. You placed a grind on yourself.

Prophecies spoiled a lot of players by letting them do what they want regardless storyline/quest/lvl. Players become expectant to do what they want. Anet implements a better system so players will actually PLAY through the game, and they get hammered for it.

-----------------------------

Last thing, i promise. A lot MMORPG force you to spend a long time JUST TO BE ABLE TO DO QUESTS or PvP.

GW gives you that right off the bat....and....wow...you cant even have isntant gratification with that?

stueyman2099 · Jan 06, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Play this (its free) for one day and tell me that GW has grind. The level cap is 120. Have fun.

Aki Soyokaze · Jan 06, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifting shadows

First invalid point: three days ago I had to go out and complete a load of boring quests in order to gain Sunspear General so that I could advance the storyline. Whoever said that we don't need to gain sunspear points is wrong. That point is invalid. And since there have been no updates as of last night, it has not been changed. Only Tyrian and Canthan characters have no need of sunspear points. Still applies to Elonians.

Well actually you don't 'have' to do the boring quests if you don't want to. You can get your little bonus by killing certain kinds of creatures while you go through the nomral progression of the game. If you do this you'll get your General Rank you need to allow the story-line to move forward.

Quote:

First point open to interpretation: No serious grind in Guild Wars. Now I don't want to go off topic here, but that was a very broad statement, and deserves a broad response. Now I consider fow armor to require some serious grinding, and that would be labeled as EXTREME grind on my grind bar. I don't play World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Runescape, or any other grind game because I hate grind. Most people who play Guild Wars feel the same. Also, we all know that titles are huge grind fests. Tell me if the Drunk title series is grind or not lol. 10,000 minutes drunk for Ale Hound is definitely grind. Sunspear points isn't as serious grind, but it's still grind nonetheless.

It would seem that you also misunderstand what grind is as per the statement you make in your next paragraph. By your own definition the issues that you bring up, such as FoW armor and Drunkard titles, are not true grind because you don't really need FoW armor or the Drunkard title to really do anything. These are purely meant for show and serve no purpose within the game, you do not get anything extra by having FoW or the Drunkard title.

FoW armor has the same stats as the much cheaper other max armors within the game. The fact that you have to work towards it only goes to show that you're willing to put in the time and effort to get it, nothing more and nothing less.

The Drunkard titles show that you're willing to waste your cash and/or that you have a lot of spare cash/time.

And even if you were able to put FoW armor and the Drunkard title in the same kind of grind group as the Sunspear realm. One would wonder why you're even complaining; because the Sunspear titles are probably the easiest of all the titles in the game to get. There is little if any work involved in actually getting these titles since henchmen/heros will do the majority of the work.

Quote:

Another point open to interpretation: Some people seem to be misunderstanding what grind is. Grind is being forced to do something boring in order to get or do something fun in the game. That's how I define grind, and yes it is very broad for a reason. If I am playing a game, then I expect it to be fun. Games are supposed to be fun. Now if I am forced to do quests that are not, in fact, fun, then I am grinding. Some people believe that I was saying that I was going out and killing a ton of monsters. No, I was spending hours going out and completing quests I had no inclination to do.

Games are meant to be fun because of the challenges that they present you with. If they just gave you everything then it wouldn't really be a game because you wouldn't be challenged by anything and it wouldn't really be fun. Perhaps you do not find all the challenges that this game presents you with as fun; but there are people out there that do enjoy this and would like to actually do the quests.

If you do not enjoy this or do not like having to do things so that the story can develop further then perhaps you should find another game. Perhaps a game where character development is lower and you do not have to put in as much time. Maybe an FPS or TPS shooter with a linear storyline would be more to your liking.

Quote:

I think the big misunderstanding in this particular thread is what people are defining as grind. And maybe I need to clarify what my problem is for those people stuck on their own definitions. The problem I've got is that we have to go out and do a ton of unnecessary things to get to the good parts of the game. The missions are what progresses the story and keeps things rolling, yet it is the quests, titles, and heroes we must wade through to get to the missions. Guild Wars was made to appeal to casual gamers, and casual gamers are people who like to jump into a game and get right to the juicy parts. Factions did an excellent job of this but Nightfall feels watered down. Maybe calling it grind is off, but being forced to go for titles I don't care about, do quests that are boring, and train NPCs so that I can DO the quests, missions, and titles is making for slow progress through a game we all expected to be about fast paced action.

Well maybe your definition of what a good GW game is is what people are having the problem with here. Since you seem to think that Factions was such a terrific game and you want to be able to just do missions then why not just avoid Nightfall altogether?

You say that there are a lot of other players that feel the same way. That they also think that one shouldn't have to do all the 'grind' that is in the game. And that the fast paced action of Factions was fun. Well on the flip side of that coin, I know that there are a lot of players that were extremely disapointed with Factions and felt that it was far too short and very rushed. And personally I hated the fact that I could get through all of Factions within 3 days without really trying. But am I asking for more grind in Factions? Am I asking for the things to be added to Factions what you're asking to be taken way from Nightfall? No, I'm not. I accept the fact that the game is the way it is and make the best of it. I paid for a game and I'll enjoy it or I'll stop playing it. So if you find it so much of a hassle to do the 'side quests' or things that are 'required' for you to progress through the story and you find that hassle takes away from your enjoyment of the game then simply don't play.

Quote:

Guild Wars is filled with side quests that I, and many others, have no desire to complete. They are boring, unoriginal, and have no real rewards to them. Now I never attacked you on anything. Would you feel better if you stopped acting like a child, and maybe grew up enough to realize that you really shouldn't be stating your opinion in that manner?

Forgive my ignorance but weren't you the one who asked for people's opinions when you basically began to whine about the whole notion of having to 'play' inorder to progress through the game?

So to be honest I don't really know what you're complaining about. This is a game and it's meant to be played and enjoyed. If you do not enjoy the game then simply don't play. If you don't enjoy the style of the game or how it's meant to be played out then move onto another game or even genre of game that you do enjoy.

You enjoyed Factions I didn't. I enjoy Nightfall you don't. They shouldn't change Factions anymore than they should change Nightfall. /notsigned

FelixCarter · Jan 06, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Play this (its free) for one day and tell me that GW has grind. The level cap is 120. Have fun.

ZOMG IT'S FLY FOR FUN! I played this game for about a week! It was so cute! ^.^
Then I got bored. T.T
But you get to fly on broom-sticks like a witch-thingy! ^.^
Then you have to kill a bunch of monsters again for a couple hours to level up. T.T

Also...

>.>

I like your name, Aki.

Durik Lakmor · Jan 07, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

If you think Guild Wars is a long, pointless grind, maybe you are playing the wrong type of game. I agree that the faction/points grind is tedious but it hardly takes up alot of time if you just go out and do it, get it over with and move on.

Factions was way too quick in my opinon. I hit 20 in 9hrs taking my time and paying attention to the storyline etc. Grant it, Factions is more of a pvp expansion, by Anet's own admission.

Nightfall is quicker than Prophecies and as an expansion feels about right, but on a stand-alone product is still a bit short.

Prophecies made hitting 20 not only fun and involving, in my opinon, but an accomplishment of sorts (not compared to other MMOs).

I took a Dervish through Nightfall in about 20hrs of game play. This includes getting through Gate of Madness which is hard to get a group as a dervish. Did the same with my Paragon. If you think 20hrs of gameplay is a long time, you must not play many RPGs of any sort.

Most Console rpgs range from 40-80hrs alone. Most MMOs take weeks-months to finish, hell even games like Super Mario 64 take longer than 20 hours to finish. So comparing to the majority of games out there, it still can come up short doing the just the main quest and getting to max level.

There are no games like Guild Wars to fairly compare Guild Wars to, other than Guild Wars itself to be honest tho, it isn't quite an MMO, and it isn't like much else out there really though, so my arguements can be seen as flawed for that reason. However even with the Sunspear point grind, Prophecies is longer if you play through it, the option to be ran through is nice for second, third, etc characters.

What do you want, turn on the game, beat a couple monsters, fight a boss, the end?

Side-quests are not relevant to the grind factor, they are side-quests, to be done when/if you want to do them.

If the grind was shortend any more from NF or god help us faster than Factions, there wouldn't be a game, you'd create your PvE character like a PvP character, what would be the point?

TheYellowKid · Jan 08, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

hahahaha@ GW having grind...

ok it does but a very tiny bit, but nothing substantial. what is it r3 to get off noob island in sunspear points, as long as you take blessings all the time you'll get that in no time while your doing quests and missions. As for boring side quests, well they're side-quests dont do em, i barely do any of them once i reach lvl 20 jus the primaries, i dont see how u can complain about side quests when by definition they are optional.

More Grind Please! well more endgame material even if it was grind. The pve side feels lacking compared to prophecies because of the shortness compared, leveling in prophecies was so slow but it made it better because you didnt hit lvl 20 for ages so felt you were still gaining something from quests, shortly after noob island in NF and Factions your lvl 20

Trophy Hunter · Jan 08, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

I think the NF campaign was the right evolution of the previous ones.
1)In Tyria you could see lvl 3 chars almost at the ring of fire(droks runs), that is really stupid. Yes you want to proceed fast but you miss all the point and really it becomes pointless.(since each char has different play). Also leveling up was unfair (pay someone to do the troll hunt)
2)At Factions you could not be runned. No more the stupid running thing but now you had to earn the advantage almost by yourself, earn faction etc... But here you can have a lvl 20 char in less than a day, that was the prob (same tyria mistake)
3)Elona. No running here earn it by yourself method. Also no fast leveling up here because of the low lvl monsters depending the area you are(slower lvl up)

So i think elona is actually the best step to balance so far

P.S: Droks run need to be fixed abit. The following wyrm isnt enought, i think some snare traps and some mesmers are missing from the route...

Deleet · Jan 08, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Please, please be joking when you say that its grind to get your character to level 20 in prophercies?

Prophercies is great and thats the way leveling up should be. Not just giving level 20 away after a few missions and quests. Earning your level and your armor and your secondary doesnt equal grind. It equals putting effort in.

The only real grind in prophercies and all 3 games, are titles like treasure hunter and wisdom. But they have benefits, so their worth it.

Nightfall and Factions are the worst with stupid titles which require *** amount of faction or sunspear or lightbringer points. They dont even benefit you except the effects they have on their unique skills. But you max those out long before you reach the max title on it.

I'm not joking, Prophecies was a long boring grind to level 20, luckily, there was a good shortcut. I hope they add shortcuts again, first time leveing through is great, second and third time isn't.

birdfoot · Jan 08, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Honestly, I dislike the part about NF where you really have to go through all the primary quests/missions on a subsequent character fresh in Elona; the part which I also dislike in Factions (but NF is still better than Factions in that respect). That been one of the worst changes on subsequent chapters for me, Prophecies offered alot of options for me and while playing a new chapter in linear mode for the first time was fine, it didn't offer any backward compatibility options.

As for the Sunspear grind portion, I don't recall intentionally having to grind for the points except maybe Lightbringer points if you want the skills. Chances are many players are finding themselves grinding because they haven't been taking up the bounties when they come across one, this will indeed lead to lack of points to progress later for players who aren't interested in doing the side quests; which in turn, driving them to grind for points. As such, I think it's quite valid for players who weren't aware or don't wish to play based on the way ANet had intended the PvE portion to be played. I didn't have an issue with this but some of my friends have encountered such problems because they weren't aware of bounties until they hit level 15 or so. If any of you recalled Prophecies, you may miss a location or some detail but you wouldn't end up with with you not being able to reach 90% of the destinations; I never understood why the mechanics had to be changed (not to stop runners I hope, did runners do anything to hurt the community?). Prophecies may have a rather slow pace if you followed the storyline, but it also leaves the option of not following it if you didn't want to.

P.S. Btw, I heard from a friend that the Sunspear limitation seems to have been lifted off foreign characters but I can't ascertain that since I don't have the game anymore.

Regarding hero requirements for missions, I think it's a good and bad thing. It's a good way to involve heroes in a mission as to improve story-telling, on the other hand, it does pose as a restriction to how a player wants to decide the roster since a fixed hero will always fill up 1 out of 3 slots. Perhaps ANet could make hero requirement compulsory if the mission is not completed; upon completion, a player can take any combination of heroes on that mission on subsequent attempts.

There are fundamental things that are good about Prophecies, however, it seems like ANet is not aware of what they are or that they want to make chapters so different hoping to provide different styles of gameplay.

Alittle off-topic...
Sometimes, I don't even see the points of certain inconsistencies ANet've introduced:

- Insignias and incriptions, why make these NF-specific only? It looks like an improved feature of the old system, I think they should make it across all chapters including the items that we now hold as a form of patch.
- I can see the point about NF being a later chapter than Factions so you can find Factions-specific profession items (e.g. daggers, ritualist armors). However, does this actually make sense when it comes to consistency? Seems like a business decision to me. If they wanted to provide something interesting for cross-continent play, I think they should add those drops to all chapters but that's going to be a chore. I feel that it's better for NF not to contain items used for Factions professions; or if they wanted to provide for some form of objective to cross-continent play, they could do it like what they've done for armors in NF at least.
- I like the storyline in NF, I only dislike the part when I saw the Lich and Shiro in the ending missions. Looks to me like characters got recycled. Chapters may have relationship to each other in terms of storyline, but that's abit too much for me.

I'd rather later chapters be expansions that required Prophecies at least. I feel that each chapter of GW stand alone as good games, but when I look at them as chapter 1 - 3, I can't make myself feel the same.